ucd-sci: Re: Sci-Board-3

From: Andrea Preite Martinez <andrea.preitemartinez-at-rm.iasf.cnr.it>
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:11:29 +0200

Quoting Rob Seaman <seaman-at-noao.edu>:

> On Jun 2, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Andrea Preite Martinez wrote:
>
>> we (eg: IVOA project and people) urgently need a stabilized version
>> of the UCD vocabulary.
>
> Fine. (Although one might read discussion to date as an expression
> of a sense that this goal will not be trivial.) If the ucd-sci board
> is to focus exclusively on generating vocabulary, what we need is a
> structured discussion, not a free-for-all. Is there a specific
> action item on the table? "Provide vocabulary" ain't gonna cut it.

Of course there is. You were probably late in joining the sci-board, and you missed it. The list was created <en route>, so the first messages were inserted in the list by hand. For reasons that I do not understand the message I'm talking about (Sci-Board-1) is there as subject, but not as content. I copy it here for you and those that joined late our list.

==========================Sci-Board-1===================================

Dear colleagues,

this first message is for setting up our roadmap and organizing the Board and our work on the UCD-vocabulary..

Roadmap. Our goal is very simple: we need to stabilize (which means adding, deleting, transforming ) the present draft list of ucd-words, that you can find at

http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/ucd1p-words.txt (just the list) http://www.ivoa.net/internal/IVOA/IvoaUCD/WD-UCDlist-20050429.pdf (the WD document)

in order to (i) reach consensus, and (ii) be able to promote the list (and the associated document) to the level of IVOA Proposed Recommendation as soon as possible (within June).

B. The Board
1. Duration.
There will be a Sci-Board as long as UCDs will be in use in the VO, in order to maintain the vocabulary. The mission of the board is described in the main UCD document, that you can find at

http://www.ivoa.net/Documents/latest/UCD.html

now under minor revisions as suggested during the Exec Meeting in Kyoto. It is possible that in the future the Exec could change the mission to suit new needs of the VO.

2. Participation.
Participation is on a voluntary basis. Colleagues can ask the chair of the Board to be inserted in (or deleted from) the mailing list of the Board, and to work for a specific task (see below).

3. Chair
For the transition period required to set up the Board and let it run, I will act as chair person of the Board (by the way, setting up the Board and upgrading the present list of UCD-words to the level of IVOA PR is a formal action for the chairman of the UCD-WG). I propose to go for an election of the chairman of the Board in a month from now.

C. Organization
1. What (Tasks)
Time is very short, at least for this first phase of our work. I propose then to define a number of key tasks and form task-groups on different aspects of the vocabulary. The most urgent cases were well pinned down during the last InterOp Meeting. My first draft proposal is to organize our work around the following tasks:

T1: the "velocity" and the resolution(s) problems
T2: theory and simulations (sim ?)
T3: at/mol physics
T4: curation (humans, organizations) and other "meta"-likes
T5: flux (total, net, backgr. and various "flux densities") and time (period

of, instant of)
T6: solar system
Txx : ??

T0: Coordination, general issues, not included in the above Ts.

Like the Board, tasks are not "closed". The discussion is open ("plenary") and contributions are welcome from every member of the Board. It will help people with an analytical mind (like mine!) to see "T5" appear in the subject of your message, if dealing with "net flux" or mid-time of exposure.

We need a coordinator for each task, with the responsibility to make a final proposal to the Board.
There is nothing formal in the following list of people, I'm just asking them to pay more attention to the discussion relevant to the corresponding task, and summarize the discussion to the Board in due time. Making use of the list of members (as of today) I propose the following coordinators:

T0        General                Andrea
T1        Velocity/resolution        Alberto Micol
T2        Theory/simulations        Volunteer(?)
T3        At/Mol physics        Marie-Lise Dubernet
T4        Meta                        Sébastien D.
T5        flux/time                Jonathan MD
T6        Solar system                Pierre Didelon

2. How
Through the Board's mailing list. Always "reply to all". The chair will record all messages.
In this first phase of our work time is very short. So please answer within the given deadlines. We won't wait for late messages.

3. When
FIRST ACTION: please comment on the above organization/rules/tasks within Thursday the 2nd of June.

This message is sent (for the last time) also to the wider interop-at-ivoa.net community to ask the laziest to join in.

Best regards

Andrea

============== end of Sci-Board-1=======================================

>> we decided to postpone the discussion on <UCDs and the VOEvent
> Define "postpone". The VOEvent WG certainly intends that its
> prototypes be fast-tracked.

As above, I copy for you my second message Sci-Board-2.

======================Sci-Board-2=========================================

Dear colleagues,

I see from the first answers to Sci-Board-1 that thinks are not clear for everybody:

Please, REPLY TO ALL the members of the Board, not to the ucd-list nor to my address. Remember that not all the members of the Board are also members of the UCD-WG. You can "cc" to your pet-list, I don't care, but make sure that at least the Board can read your message.
When suggesting new UCD-words, please ask yourself which kind of "quantity" you want to describe or, if not a quantity, which kind of attribute (qualifier/modifier). By the way, our mission is to stabilize and maintain a list of "words", NOT a list of UCDs. Syntax will take care of how to build UCDs, based on the classification of the word (e.g. P/Q/S syntactic flag).
For what VOEvent is concerned, please have a look at the conclusions of the joint session UCD/VOEvent at http://www.ivoa.net/twiki/bin/view/IVOA/InterOpMay2005UCD

We will discuss Event vocabulary at the end of the year, when a first bottom-up list of terms will be available.

4. Sorry, there isn't such a thing as Solar System UCDs. I remind you that the IVOA (Proposed) Recommendation on UCDs explicitly forbids UCDs like "star", "galaxy", or "Sun", "my_pet_object", and so on. On the contrary, qualifiers like "stellar", "galactic", "solar" can be valid atoms.

Regards

Andrea

=======================end of Sci-Board-2=================================



>> I remind you that in the actual version of UCDs we do have  

>> <objects>: in the sense that we do (we can) distinguish between the  

>> temperature of a star (its effective temperature) and that of a  

>> detector or instrument. We do distinguish between the name/ 

>> identifier of an astronomical object and that of a telescope,

>> instrument, or even a fov. In all these cases we use ucd-words
>> describing <objects> as <qualifiers>.
>
> It would be useful to those of us now joining the UCD conversation
> from outside to see such examples expressed in in their full and gory
> detail.

You can use the UCD builder on line at:

http://vizier.u-strasbg.fr/UCD/cgi-bin/descr2ucd

>> I totally agree with Rick's final statement on ontologies: we need
>> standards NOW, not in 30-40 man-years time!
>
> Rather, we need prototype solutions now.
I don't see why you say <Rather>. There is not contradiction. I'm talking about STANDARDS NOW. STANDARDS LATER
> ... The ontologies will inevitably form the long term standards...
need prototyping now.

> Rob Seaman
> NOAO
Andrea Received on 2005-06-03Z10:11:52